The information on this blog is obtained from MoD, MoF, and other Ministries of the Govt of India through the RTI Act, 2005. The information posted here for the benefit of all Veterans and widows of Armed Forces personnel. Being Informed is the Best Weapon against fake news and misrepresentation and it is in the interest of maintaining morale which is of one of the paramount requirements for national security in these troubled times.
Monday, 4 January 2016
Part I - File notings of MoD in comments/views/recommendations on JSM
Happy New Year
The 7th CPC sought the views of MoD on the Joint Services Memorandum submitted by TRIPAS.
This is Part -I of MoD's response of 65 pages.
Two or Three more parts will follow as fast as I can type, check for typos, correct them and upload.
Online RTI Request Form Details
RTI Request Details:-
RTI Request Registration number MODEF/R/2015/63089
Public Authority Department
Personal Details of RTI Applicant:-
Description of Information Sought
Services HQ a Joint Services Memorandum (JSM) directly to 7 Central Pay
Commission (7CPC) , as indicated by MoD in reply to an earlier request for
on the JSM.
CPC has requested the views of MoD, being the administrative ministry, for views on
certain submissions in the JSM as well as for information related to the
same/other submissions in the JSM.
provide information as defined in Section 2(f) of the RTI Act, 2005 including file notings, minutes/record of
discussions and deliberations, and any other material in connection with the request of the
7 CPC for views of MoD on the Services HQ JSM.
Request for Additional Payment
Dated 8 Dec 2015 and received on 14 Dec 2015
No. 21(1)/2015-D (PCC)
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
Room No. 215, B Wing, Sena Bhawan,
New Delhi, Dated 8th December 2015
Subject: Furnishing of
information under Right to Information Act, 2005
Please refer to your RTI Application
No. MODEF/R/2015/63089 dated 13.11.2015 received through RTI Cell of MoD on
23.11.2015 in D (Pay Commission Cell).
2.Information sought by you consists of 65
pages. You are therefore requested to send Rs 130/- (Rs 2/- per page) in the
shape of Indian Postal Order/DD in the name of Accounts Officer (DAD), M/o
Defence, New Delhi.
Under Secretary (PCC) & CPIO
Telefax: 2301 3314
Copy to:Section Officer (RTI Cell) for information.
BY SPEED POST
S Y Savur
141 Jal Vayu Towers,
Indira Nagar (PO),
Bangalore – 56003818
Under Secretary (Pay
Commission Cell) & CPIO
(For Shri M. S. Sharma)
Ministry of Defence,
Room No. 215, B Wing, Sena
New Delhi - 110011
Payment of Additional Amount for Information
Please refer to MoD (PCC) letter No. 21(1)/2015-D (PCC) dated 08 Dec
2015 and received by the undersigned on 14 Dec 2015.
2.As desired Demand Draft No. 559089 for Rs 130/- dated 18.12.2015 issued by the
State Bank of Travancore, Indira Nagar, Bangalore-560038 endorsed for payment
to Accounts Officer (DAD), Ministry of Defence (Civil) at New Delhi is
3.In the interest of saving National
resources, you may wish to consider photocopying back-to-back the 65 pages of
information that is being supplied.
(S Y Savur)
Encl: Demand Draft as
Reply dated 22 Dec 2015 received on 02 Jan 2016
By Registered Post
No. 21 (1)/2015-D (PCC)
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
Room No. 215, B Wing, Sena Bhawan
New Delhi, Dated 22nd December 2015
Subject: Furnishing of Information under Right
to Information Act, 2005
Please refer to your RTI application
No. MODEF/R/2015/60389 dated 13.11.2015, received through RTI Cell of MoD on
23.11.2015 in D (Pay Commission Cell) and your letter no. nil dated 18.12.2015
sending DD of Rs 130/-. Find enclosed 65 pages of information consisting of
file noting and views of Ministry of Defence submitted to 7th Central
Pay Commission on certain aspects of the JSM, as asked by you under RTI Act,
2.If you are not satisfied with the information, an appeal shall
lie with the 1st Appellate Authority who name and address are as
Shri R Pandiyan
Secretary (PC + MIS)
Wing, Sena Bhawan,
Delhi (Phone No. 011 2301 3416)
(M S Sharma)
Under Secretary (PCC) & CPIO
Telefax: 2301 3314
to: - Director, TRIPAS, Kashmir House, Room No. 116, New Delhi
1.Secretary, 7th CPC vide letter
(FR) dated 24.12.2014 has sought comments of Ministry of Defence on certain
issues raised by some stakeholders and the three Services in the Joint Services
2.The comments on all these issues were called for from all
concerned. The comments received have been discussed with by JS (E) and AS (R).
Comments of MoD on the issues raised by 7th CPC are discussed in
3.Grant of Non-Functional
Upgradation (NFU) to Defence Forces: The issue involved is the grant of NFU
to Service personnel on the lines it was granted to the Organised Gp ‘A’
Services (including IPS/IFS) after the implementation of 6th CPC.
issue was examined in the Ministry and by a Committee headed by the Cabinet
Secretary. The Committee in its report which was accepted by the Government has
noted that the service conditions of Defence Forces are quite different from
those of civilian employees. Benefits in the form of Military Service Pay and
various allowances are also available to the Defence Forces officers which are
not available to civilian officers. Further, Defence Forces officers are
covered by a separate time-bound promotion scheme upto the level of Colonel.
The scheme of non-functional upgradation is applicable only for organised Gp
‘A’ Services was extended to IPS/IFS. The requirement related to command and
control, the norms for recruitment, promotion and the rank structure of the
Defence Forces are not identical to those of Group ‘A’ cadres. The average age
of entry of Commissioned Officers is lower than that of those joining Group ‘A’
In view of the above, the
Committee did not make any recommendation on this issue.
Further, in the Pranab Mukherjee Committee Report
though this particular issue was not considered, it was stated in the Report
that for functional purposes, salary cannot be the basis to determine status.
it is felt that due to steep hierarchical pyramid, Armed Forces officers are at
a disadvantage as compared to Gp ‘A’ services. Since no one-to-one comparison
can be drawn between Armed Forces officers and civilian officers, it is felt
that 7th CPC may be recommended to devise a suitable mechanism to
address this issue.
civilian side in Central Government, there are seven levels of officers in
Group A (and not six as indicated in VII COC D.O. letter) (i.e. Junior Time
Scale (Assistant Director/equiv.), Under Secretary, Deputy Secretary, Director,
Joint Secretary, Additional Secretary, Special Secretary/Secretary). The Army
(as also the other two Services) being fighting forces have their own command
and control functions in their hierarchy and no one-to-one comparison with the
civilian side can be made.
5.Placement of Lt.
Generals in HAG+ Scale:
of pay scales of Lt Gens/equivalent was not agreed to by the Government before
VI CPC. After VI CPC, the matter was re-considered in April 2009 and it was
decide to give the higher pay scale (HAG+ scale) to 1/3rd Lt
Generals/equivalents. This was agreed to by the then COAS. In the light of the
above, the present demand of the Services for grant of HAG+ scale to all Lt
Generals/equivalents goes against the stand taken by the Services in 2009.
issue was also considered by the Pranab Mukherjee Committee. It was stated the
COS has already agree to grant Army Commander’s scale (Apex Scale – Rs 80000)
on a non-functional basis to certain number of Lt Generals. Lt Generals in
Defence Forces are equivalent to Additional Secretaries on the civilian side
and prior to VI CPC, both were in the scale Rs 22400-24500. There is no comparison of Lt Generals
with officers on the civilian side as those in HAG+ scale had a higher pay
scale of Rs 24050-26000 prior to VI CPC. This relativity was not disturbed by
the VI CPC and the CoS also did not recommend any change in the matter. Moreover,
on the civil side also, all officers do not reach the HAG+ level.
Pay:It has been
contended that in the 6th CPC, the Grade Pay has been artificially
depressed as Rank Pay was not taken into consideration while determining the
top of the pay scale of various ranks.
matter relating to revision of grade pay to officers was examined in 2008 also.
The Government after a long deliberation on the VI CPC recommendations decided
to increase Grade Pay of middle level Armed Forces Officers (except
Lt/equivalent) thereby meeting the demand of the Services, but did not accept
its point on the issue of merger of Rank Pay in basic pay. Subsequently, while
examining draft Services instructions for pay revision, Ministry of Finance
also did not approve the merger of Rank Pay with Basic Pay and observed that
pre-revised scale and Rank Pay should be shown distinctly in two separate
columns in pay fixation tables. Accordingly, the Service instructions were
Not merging Rank Pay with Basic Pay was upheld in the
Pranab Mukherjee Committee Report. It was also emphasised therein that the Central
Pay Commission are recommendatory authorities and final decision of the pay
scales is taken by the Cabinet, and as such the Cabinet decision is the final
word on the subject. Hence the case is not supported.
7.Pay to Lt Colonels and
Services have based their case on merger of Rank Pay with basic pay before
fixation of pay, VI Pay Commission in their report has recommended that running
pay bands on par with those recommended for civilian officers needs to be
introduced in respect of Defence Forces as well. The pay of officers in Defence
Forces has been fixed in line with that of civilian officers. The basis of this
demand i.e. merger of Rank Pay in basic pay was examined in a detailed manner
by the Pranab Mukherjee Committee Report and the same was not accepted. Hence
the case is not supported.
Work and Equal Pay (Armed Forces personnel and Civilians working side by side)
service conditions and nature of the job of Service Personnel and Defence
Civilians are totally different. Terms of engagement of service personnel also
differ from that of Defence Civilians. Moreover, Service Personnel and the
Civilians are recruited through different recruitment processes and
examinations. The duties/responsibilities assigned to both the streams are not
comparable. Hence, Ministry if of the view that the concept of ‘Equal Pay and
Equal Work’ in this case is not feasible.
from the above, civilian engineering cadres of the Defence Establishments have
parity with their counterparts in other Central Government Establishments.
Rationalisation:The proposal is
for upgradation of ‘Y’ Group personnel to ‘X’ Group on the basis of length of
service/attaining higher qualification etc.
proposal to make a provision for upgradation of JCOs/ORs from Group ‘Y’ to
Group ‘X’ is based on ‘Point Rating System’ and length of service as explained
in Paras 4.1.22 to 4.1.23 of JSM may help in increasing motivation levels of
JCOs/ORs. Accordingly, the proposal may be recommended for consideration of 7th
10.Common Pay Scales for
each service like JCOs/ORs:
issue alongwith other issues was raised by the Services in 2008, after
submission of report of the 6th CPC. The matter was then examined in
detail in consultation with Defence (Finance). The issue was recommended by the Ministry to the Committee of
Secretaries in May 2008. The proposal was, however, not favoured.
Services raised certain issues as an anomaly. This issue was one of them. The
matter was examined in consultation with CGDA/Defence (Finance).
as per directions of the Prime Minister, a Committee headed by Cabinet
Secretary (with Secretaries of Defence, ESW, Personnel and Expenditure and
Principal Secretary (PMO) as its members) was constituted in July 2012 to look
into and provide suitable recommendations on certain issues of relevance to
Defence Personnel and Ex-Servicemen. The common pay scale for in-service PBORs
was one of the five pay related issues.
Committee submitted its report in August 2012. After detailed examination, in
para 27.2 of the report, the Committee noted that “the proposal of Defence Forces has several complexities and also
involves a deviation from the basic principles adopted by the Sixth Pay
Commission for pay fixation of those in service on 01.01.2006. The basic
principles followed for JCOs/ORs are the same as for other Government
employees, In the circumstances, the Committee is unable to make a
recommendation on the representation and is of the view that this issue should
be referred to the next Pay Commission as and when it is set up, for
consideration. In this context, in view of the fact that similar demands have
been raised by other section of employees, its examination will have to be done
on a holistic basis.”
acceptance of the recommendations of the Committee, the matter has already been
referred to the 7th CPC.
of certain organisation (MES and Accounts Branch of Air Force etc) under the
is purely an administrative issue. The Government can take a decision on
manning of cadres as per operation and administrative requirements.
12.NFU and One Rank One
far as the issue of NFU is concerned, the Ministry’s comments are as against
Para No. 3 above.
for regulation of pension once grant of NFU is accepted, it is stated that
modalities for implementation of ‘One Rank One Pension’ (OROP) are yet to be
finalised. As such it would be premature to take a view as to how the pension
of officers would get regulated if the demand for NFU which entails a higher
non-functional upgradation, over and above the existing rank (and
correspondingly pay of the next higher rank) is accepted.
13.Participation of Defence
Forces in Central Staffing Scheme
outset, it may be stated that the issue of participation of the Defence
Services in the Central Staffing Scheme in the Central Government as admissible
to All India Services and Group ‘A’ Central Services involves a conscious
decision at the highest level in the Government of India on this concept. While
doing so, it has to be kept in view that job requirements of civilian
administration and the armed forces are totally different. They are recruited
ad trained differently. Apart from this, the armed forces are already facing
acute shortage of officers at different levels.
is added here that central staffing scheme envisages filling up of the posts in
the Government of India by borrowing officers from the All India Services and
participating Group ‘A’ Services. The cardinal principle being that all
officers who are so borrowed will serve the Government of India on deputation
and thereafter return to their parent cadre. The raison d’etre of such scheme is
the Centre’s need for fresh inputs at senior levels in policy planning,
formulation of policy and implementation from diverse sources viz the All India
Services and participating organised Group ‘A’ Services.
under the Central Staffing Scheme, officers belonging to All India Services and
Group ‘A’ participating Organised Services are eligible to be appointed at the
level of DS/Director and above. However, in Armed Forces, there is no
classification of Group ‘A’ and Group ‘B’ and only defined classification in
the Armed Forces is Commissioned and Non-Commissioned/Junior Commissioned
officers. Moreover, the Defence Forces officers are governed by their
respective Acts (Army Act, Navy Act, and Air Force Act) and a number of issues
relating to discipline, pay & allowances, command & control etc will
have to be resolved before armed forces officers are allowed to participate in
the Central Staffing Scheme. Further, the move will also have ramifications fr
officers of CAPFs who will raise similar demands.
is added here that a number of Service Personnel are already serving of
deputation in various civil organisations. However, Ministry of Defence has no
objection to the intake of limited number of Service Officers under lateral
movement based on their expertise in the specific areas. It is, however,
mentioned that DOP&T is the nodal Department on such issues. Therefore,
DOP&T may take a view on this issue.
14.Superannuation age of
difference in superannuation ages amongst the three Services stems from unique
roles and operation environment of these forces. The ages of superannuation has
been reviewed periodically over the years based on operational and
administrative requirements and modified when required. As regard, practice in
foreign armies, it is submitted that there does not exist a standard
dispensation and superannuation ages have been tailored to the particular
operation requirement of individual countries.
entry of service personnel in Defence Civil Organisation:
transfer of service personnel into Central Armed Police Forces (CAPFs) was also
recommended by the Kargil Review Committee, GoM on Reviewing National Security
System besides the V and VI CPCs. The matter has continuously been pursued with
Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA). However, the issue remains unresolved for want
of favourable response from MHA. As such, MHA has to take a view on this
for civil organisations are concerned, SSC are given age relaxation for entry
into the civil employment.
16.The data sought by the 7th CPC
regarding strength of select ranks in various branches, duration of posting in
field/peace areas etc has also been received from TRIPAS.
17.The comments as contained in Paragraphs 3 to
15 above are submitted for kind consideration and approval before submission to
the 7th CPC as per statement placed opposite at DFA-I.