Tuesday, 26 August 2014

Update - Interactions with 7 CPC on 24 Aug 14 and 25 Aug 14

Col Rajan was informed by the GOC, Sub-Area that the Seventh CPC were scheduled to visit Bangalore from the 24 - 26 Aug 14. Accordingly, he tried to get a slot so that the ESM from Bangalore could be given an opportunity to meet this august body to convey their views on the 7th CPC. In the afternoon of 24th Aug, Col Rajan was informed that a slot would be given for 15 minutes from 1730 hrs, the same day. Due to the short notice, Rear Adm Alan O'Leary and Col Rajan were able to attend the meeting as Air Marshal Savur was out of Station. During the interaction, the following points were brought out:-

2.       For the record, on 24 Aug 14 evening, RAdm O’Leary and Col (retd) Rajan met the following:-

(a) Justice (retd) A K Mathur (Chairman)

(b) Shri Vivek Rae, Member CPC

(c) Smt Meena Agarwal, Member -Secretary

(d) Shri Samir Sinha, Jt Secy, attached to the CPC.

(e) Shri Jayant Sinha, Jt Secy, attached to the CPC

(f) Shri Sudhir Sharma, Under Secy attached to the CPC.

3.       The following points were placed before the 7th CPC on 24 Aug 14: -

3.1.     Whatever be the Pay & Allowances that is granted to the All India Services based on length of service; the same Pay & Allowances be granted to personnel of the Armed Forces with corresponding length of service plus (+) X factor on account of risk attendant to Military Service.

3.2.     Review of the present Allowances & Benefits to those bestowed with gallantry Medals, viz. like free air travel, etc. The cash awards to gallantry need to be increased substantially, to make the allowances & benefits meaningful.

3.3.     Recommendations/Award by the 7th CPC must be unambiguous, ie. so worded that there is absolutely no room for any ambiguity that can be mis-interpreted by the those implementing the orders in Ministry of Defence and those providing financial concurrence in Ministry of Finance; a classic example being grant of ‘Rank Pay’ to Officers by the 4th CPC w.e.f 1.1.1986.

3.4.     Every CPC has said that when it comes to Pay & Allowances, the personnel of the Armed Forces must enjoy a slight edge vis-à-vis All India Services. That being so, Grade Pay & Military Service Pay must be clubbed together with the Basic Pay, while fixing the new Pay Scales in respect of the Armed Forces’ personnel.

3.5.     Rear Adm Alan O'Leary brought out that most of the anomalies in the last Pay Commission resulted because the Sixth CPC did not share their recommendations with the PARC, before submitting their report. Therefore he suggested, that this be done in the Seventh CPC, and their findings are shared with the Services Pay Cells, before the report is finalised.

4.       Rear Admiral Alan O'Leary, sought another slot where a larger forum headed by Air Marshal Savur could also be present. This was not agreed to, as the Chairman stated, that owing to a paucity of time they could not give another slot. Furthermore, they would be meeting the Chiefs shortly, who had already conveyed their aspirations to the CPC and that they were severely hard pressed for time.

5.         The same night however, Rear Admiral Alan O'Leary received a call from Mr Samir Sinha, that a member of the Seventh CPC, Mr Vivek Rae, would like to meet him the next day. Rear Adm Alan O'Leary contacted Mr Vivek Rae and a meeting was fixed with a larger forum of ESM at 1730 Hours.

6.       On 25 Aug 14, the meeting commenced at about 1720 hrs. Lt Gen Kamat, RAdm O’Leary, Col Rajan, Air Mshl Savur and Col Srikantha Seshadri, (all retd, names in alphabetical order) met Shri Vivek Rae, Member, and Shri Jayant Sinha Joint Secretary 7th CPC & coordinator for Defence Services matters. The following points were placed before them for wider consultation and consideration: -

6.1.     Pay

6.1.1.            Pay for Armed Forces Officers should be determined at par with the AIS and Group A organised Services, as per length of service.

It was elucidated that in the Armed Forces the date of Commission is the date recorded for length of Service, whereas with the AIS, it is the date they join the Academy. The ESM proposed that the length of service needed to be rationalised in line with the practice followed by the Civil Services, as all Officers leaving the various Academies in the Armed Forces are Graduates and therefore their service could be counted from the date they pass out of these academies that could be stipulated.

 6.1.2.           The so-called disparity in ages of joining respective services should not be a factor for debate or argument because the qualifications have been laid down by the Government of India i.e. the age group and minimum educational qualifications for All India Services and Defence Forces. Nevertheless, every cadet passing out of NDA is now a Graduate and CDSE requires only Graduates, just like for the All India Services.     

6.1.3.            While a Defence Services personnel – OR, JCO or Officer – may join at a younger age compared to their civilian counterparts, they also retire/get discharged/superannuate at lesser age(s) commensurate with the rank attained. On the other hand all civil services employees superannuate at 60 years of age, unless they choose to seek greener pastures earlier.    

6.1.4.            Ranks in the Armed Forces be delinked from the Warrant of Precedence, as there is no commonality with any civil service that have different hierarchical structures. The governing factor should be length of Service and that alone.

6.2.     Allowances

6.2.1.  Allowances should be at par with Civil Services employees i.e. if AIS are entitled to X allowance for service in an area, then the same amount of allowances should be the entitlement of Defence Personnel.

Also the date of commencement of new allowances for all class of employees, Civilians or Defence Forces would be the same.

6.2.2.  For example Instructional allowances at a certain percentage is paid to Civil Services and similar allowances should be paid to Defence Forces personnel. It was suggested that Services HQ should identify the training institutions where this allowance would be applicable.

6.3.     Non-Functional Upgradation

6.3.1.  The ESM emphasised that there was no justification for Armed Forces Officers to be left out of NFU, that the Sixth CPC had granted to all AIS Officers and Group A organised Services. They reiterated that pay promotions would have absolutely no impact on the Command and Control equations that existed in the Armed Forces and this should be implemented from 1 Jan 2006.

6.3.2.  The members of the 7th CPC were shown true typed copies of the MoD’s replies dated 08 Oct 13 and 30 Dec13 to RTI that MoD has reviewed recommendation by the Committee of Secretaries in respect of NFU for Defence Services officers and has “decided to wait” and that the NFU is under consideration of the Government and hence information cannot be shared, respectively.

6.3.3.  Shri Rae desired that scanned copies of the MoD’s reply may be emailed to Shri Jayant Sinha, JS to 7 CPC & coordinator for Defence Services matter. The scanned copies have been mailed to Shri Jayant Sinha on 26 Aug 14.

The meeting ended at 1900 hrs.


  1. Excellent job done by our Bangaloreans-You make us proud!

  2. In addition please include

    Basic+GP as per GP A officers and also NFU or any other amendments which takes place later.

    Rank pay for each promotion to be newly introduced to cater for the unique pyramidal structure of the forces.,

    1. Sir,

      Our interaction with the 7 CPC has culminated after the discussions on 25 Aug 14 when they visited Bangalore.

      We have suggested that whatever pay & allowances structures are for All India Services should be applicable to Armed Forces and from the same date without need for separate dates of implementation.

      The points you have projected here may be sent to others who may have requested for an interaction with 7 CPC in their cities/New Delhi.

    2. Any discussion took place on implementation of OROP before VII pay commission or got lost in the din????

    3. OROP was not discussed as but for the implementation order everything else - commitment by UPA & NDA on the floor of the Parliament in the Interim Budget 2014-15 (Rs 500 crore) and Budget 2014-15 in July (Rs 1000 crore).setting aside Rs 1500 crore.

      As per the different minutes recorded in files, Koshyiari Committee, MoF/DoE estimates (2011), Committee of Secretaries report (2012) etc the annual outgo is Rs 1300 crore (Rs 1065 crore for ORs & JCOs and Rs 235 crores for officers).

      Neither the JSM of the Services HQ nor our group discussed OROP.

      We discussed and felt that the matter is of implementation. If we broached it with 7 CPC and it was included in the report,, OROP would/could be delayed till 2016 or 2017.

  3. Consequent to the increase in years of service of contractual period of SSCO's of all the three services, can ECHS & Pension for these officers be discussed in this forum?

    1. Sir, once we have a look at the Joint Services Memorandum, it will be known what the Services have presented to the 7 CPC in the chapter on Terms and Conditions of Service.

      Yes, you can discuss with 7 CPC if you obtain an audience by keeping track of their visits to various places from the 7 CPC website. Please take copies of documents that support your cause for it will strengthen your argument.

  4. Few issues which must be included in 7CPC.Mostly applicable to Serving:-
    .1. HRA:
    A civilian employee gets HRA as a right. It is not paid to him if he is allotted a government FAMILY accommodation (or) refuses to accept a FAMILY accommodation of his entitled class/type. Meaning that any civ Govt employee just gets HRA which is 30% etc as a right. Why this right is being deny to our soldiers/Officers ? HRA is paid to an employee to meet the expenses related to his family's need of accommodation.
    (a) A particular % of soldiers are required to be staying in billets/barracks/single offrs accommodation in peace area and in tents etc in field area as a service requirement and is not a choice for the individual employee. what about the family accommodation for their dependent family members. Therefore, any one denyed entitled family accommodation should be paid HRA. ( I personally do not encourage that CILQ inplace of HRA ).
    (b) Officers below age of 25 yrs are not entitled for family accommodation wheather married or not. We are not a colonial Army with its perks(both tangible and intangibles) to consider marriage before 25 years a crime. Who is GOI or our own senior officers to put this dictum . Even bachelor officers do have dependent family members. Therefore , do not deny them HRA
    (c) Substandard make shift/single accommodations where the family stays. It is a failure of the system to provide /it is a requirement of the system to have a % staying in single/field accommodation. The HRA should not be denyed and should be paid to combatants as is done for other Civilian central Government employees.
    IN NUTSHELL PAY HRA TO ALL SERVICE MEN/WOMEN AT PAR WITH CIVILIANS unless allotted entitled family accommodation or he refuses to take over an entitled class of accommodation. The catch here is "some % staying in barracks/single officers accommodation is a service requirement and not the requirement of the individual , He requires HRA for his family as well".

    Soldiering is a hazardous profession and their life is required to be insured by the Government. The existing AGIF/AFGIF/NGIF etc should be realigned to suite fully life insurance coverage by the government(with out survival benifits) and existing contribution from the personnel to continue for additional life coverage and maturity benifits on retirement with a proviso for extended life cover without maturity benifits as is being done now. The life coverages of pilots/sub crew etc be the responsibility of the Government.
    The total Life coverage(government compliment) should be 1Crore for officers and 75Lakhs for JCOs and 50 Lakhs for men as of 2014 and the coverage amount be indexed upward every year on the scale of the Income tax department (The Indexation calculation they use of capital gains tax)

    A junior IAS guy gets mobile phone recharge worth of 1000 and upward. The recharge amount should be entitled to all Commissioned officers at the scale authorised to the IAS officers. the present system of appointment based telephone connection is an old time norm in an environment then existing . TELEPHONE REIMBURSEMENT SHOULD BE AT PAR WITH IAS.

    4.CEA/HOSTEL SUBSIDY. Forces children cannot be treated at par with civilians due to paculiar nature of remote and frequent posting . Being a second gen soldier , I had to attend to almost 8 Schools before the socalled SSLC(10th Std). I didnot want my children to land up in the same situation. But could not afford continuious boarding school to my children due to my peace/field postings. But had to keep the children and family in a metro and had to live single (without HRA) in a peace station as well.
    Therefore, All personnel of forces should be entitles for Hostel subsidy and CEA concurrently at the civilian rates.

    All of The above pertains to the actions in the Current Chiefs domain. would request you to take it up with them forcfully as a senior officer for obvious reasons .

  5. Sir,
    The SAO post 2006 ( S/2008) talks about officers pension wef 10 years of service. Then why are SS officers with 10,14 years denyed pension. It is morally and ethically incorrect . The comis call it "exploitation of the gullible workforce". Can government afford to do it ??

  6. Sir, Pension post 1.1.2006 is not dealt with in SAI 2/S/2008. It is dealt with by MoD letter No. 17 (4)/2008 (2) -D (Pen/Policy) dated 12.11.2008 and modified parity for officers by PCDA (P) Circular No. 500. Please read that.

    It might be too late and I wish you had posted comments on or before 28 Aug 14 because (1) I retired in 2006 and so am just another Veteran; and (2) Services made their presentation to 7 CPC on 28 Aug 14. I am not aware of the contents of that presentation or the Joint Services Memorandum containing the proposals, justifications etc.