Saturday 21 November 2015

Pay Matrix (Defence Forces Personnel - Except MNS)





Pay Matrix (Defence Forces Personnel - Except MNS)

Pay Band
5200-20200
9300-34800
15600-39100
37400-67000

67000-
79000

75500-
80000

80000
90000

Grade Pay
2000
2400
2800
3400
4200
4600
4800
5400
5400
6100
6600
8000
8700
8900
10000





Entry Pay (EP)
8460
9910
11360
12700
13500
17140
18150
20280
21000
22960
25980
45400
48900
52290
53000
67000
75500
80000
90000

Level
3
4
5
5A
6
7
8
9
10
10B
11
12A
13
13A
14
15
16
17
18
Index
2.57
2.57
2.57
2.62
2.62
2.62
2.62
2.62
2.67
2.67
2.67
2.57
2.57
2.57
2.72
2.72
2.72
2.81
2.72
1
21700
25500
29200
33300
35400
44900
47600
53100
56100
61300
69400
116700
125700
134400
144200
182200
205400
225000
250000
2
22400
26300
30100
34300
36500
46200
49000
54700
57800
63100
71500
120200
129500
138400
148500
187700
211600


3
23100
27100
31000
35300
37600
47600
50500
56300
59500
65000
73600
123800
133400
142600
153000
193300
217900


4
23800
27900
31900
36400
38700
49000
52000
58000
61300
67000
75800
127500
137400
146900
157600
199100
224400


5
24500
28700
32900
37500
39900
50500
53600
59700
63100
69000
78100
131300
141500
151300
162300
295100



6
25200
29600
33900
38600
41100
52000
55200
61500
65000
71100
80400
135200
145700
155800
167200
211300



7
26000
30500
34900
39800
42300
53600
56900
63300
67000
73200
82800
139300
150100
160500
172200
217600



8
26800
31400
35900
41000
43600
55200
58600
65200
69000
75400
85300
143500
154600
165300
177400
224100



9
27600
32300
37400
42200
44900
56900
60400
67200
71100
77700
87900
147800
159200
170300
182700




10
28400
33300
38100
43500
46200
58600
62200
69200
73200
80000
90500
152200
164000
175400
188200




11
29300
34300
39200
44800
47600
60400
64100
71300
75400
82400
93200
156800
168900
180700
193800




12
30200
35300
40400
46100
49000
62200
66000
73400
77700
84900
96000
161500
174000
186100
199600




13
31100
36400
41600
47500
50500
64100
68000
75600
80000
87400
98900
166300
179200
191700
205600




14
32000
37500
42800
48900
52000
66000
70000
77900
82400
90000
101900
171300
186400
197500
211800




15
33000
38600
44100
50400
53600
68000
72100
80200
84900
92700
105000
176400
190100






16
34000
39800
45400
51900
55200
70000
74300
82600
87400
95500
108200
181700
195800






17
35000
41000
46800
53500
56900
72100
76500
85100
90000
98400
111400
187200







18
36100
42200
48200
55100
58600
74300
78800
87700
92700
101400
114700
192800







19
37200
43500
49600
56800
60400
76500
81200
90300
95500
104400
118100








20
38300
44800
51100
58500
62200
78800
83600
93000
98400
107500
121600








21
39400
46100
52600
60300
64100
81200
86100
95800
101400
110700
125200








22
40600
47500
54200
62100
66000
83600
88700
98700
104400
114000
129000








23
41800
48900
55800
64000
68000
86100
91400
101700
107500
117400
132900








24
43100
50400
57500
65900
70000
88700
94100
104800
110700
120900
136900








62 comments:

  1. Sir,
    The, Index( Row 5 in the above table) determined to fit the Entry Level Pay for Lt.Col, Col and Brig is the same, at a value of 2,57.
    The argument given by the 7CPC at Paras 5.1.20 and 5.2.8 is that there was a marked jump( disproportionate increase) in the 6 CPC Bands while entering PB 4 .
    and the Index was therefore lowered from 2.67 to 2.57 for GP of 8700 and the same is also applicable to GP of 8000.
    But when the Index for GP of 8900 is seen, the Civil Matrix has an Index of 2.67 and the Defence Matrix has an Index of 2.57.
    Shouldn't the index for the same GP in the civil and Defence be the same?

    ReplyDelete
  2. the level 5 grade pay 2800 entry pay for sgt/hav/po shows as 29200.... the 6cpc entry pay was 9300 + 2800=12100*2.57=31097=31100.....it seems the matrix has anomalies...

    ReplyDelete
  3. the matrix level index1 shows entry pay in the rank....in level 5 in air force the promotion to the rank of sgt is as per trade in some trades(radio/radar) it is as early as 9 yrs and by 15 th yr they become jwo where as in some trades is as late as 13 th yr (wpn/air frame/engine) then how entry pay is worked out???? the 7cpc has taken data from cgda... have the 7 cpc verified the correctness of data????

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Please read Chapters 5, 6 and 10 of the Report. You will find the answers there.

      Delete
  4. The Commission also wrongly observes that a Committee of Secretaries did not accept the merger of Rank Pay with Basic Pay and states that the Supreme Court has also upheld this view. This is incorrect. The Supreme Court has, on the contrary, upheld that Rank Pay forms a part of Basic Pay. It may be recalled that the Rank Pay had been carved out of Basic itself.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Sir,

    Documented facts (available elsewhere on this blog) are as follows:-

    1. It was a High Powered Committee (HPC) comprising Def Secy, Secy (Expenditure) and Secretary Def/Fin convened on the suggestion of the then Solicitor General to provide grounds to challenge the Supreme Court's order of 8.3.2010 in TP (C) No. 56 of 2007. The merger of rank pay with Basic Pay was not agreed to by the HPC and was quoted in Addl Affidavit dated 15 Nov 2010 at Para 30 (b).

    2. The Supreme Court was in agreement with the order of the Division Bench of the High Court of Kerala in WP 518 of 1999 which ordered that Rank Pay should not be deducted from the amount of re-fixation arrived at after 1.1.1986.

    3. Neither of the judgments stated that Rank Pay is part of Basic Pay. It was a MoD order dated Feb 2000 that stated so.

    4. It was the interpretation of Lt Col (retd) N K Nair & RDOA in the Contempt Petition No. 328 of 2013 that Rank Pay had been carved out of Basic Pay. This petition was dismissed earlier this year.

    5. Services HQ picked up the expression "carved out of" and included it in their Joint Services Memorandum. It was not agreed to by the then AG when he gave his opinion dated 03 Sep 2013.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "...interpretation of Lt Col (retd) N K Nair & RDOA in the Contempt Petition No. 328 of 2013 that Rank Pay had been carved out of Basic Pay..."

      Sir, on those lines, the apex court has also held that if the fixation had been incorrect due to the carving out, then due correction of fixation could be sought separately.

      It now depends on RDOA and the petitioners as to how far they wish to proceed with the matter.

      That the basic was wrongly fixed due to the caving out of rank pay was never countered in the HSC judgement. One way to look at it would be that HSC felt rank pay wrongly deducted had been corrected and that the wrong fixation was a separate matter.

      Delete
  6. Issues arising from this matrix too may remain subject of debate and discussion for the months to come. https://goo.gl/vF5GdU

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Debates and discussions will also arise if we all went to heaven, where everything is supposedly perfect.

      What is needed is a detailed reading of the report and the cases (examples) given therein. Hope we all do that instead of the, by now famous, "mujhe kitna milega? Usko kyon jyada mila" issues!

      Delete
  7. Sad that 7 CPC did no justice to the selection grade Lt Col VETERANS WHO ACTUALLY LEAD THEIR BNS IN ALL MAJOR WARS THAT INDIA FOUGHT AFTER 1947. PLACING THEM WITH 13 YEARS TIME SCALE Lt Cols is a cruel joke.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sir,

      If it is reflected in SAI 2/S/2016, as cases given in the 7 CPC Report, you would have the option of taking the higher amount. Please see Chapter 10.2 pages 419 and 420.

      Delete
  8. This is civilian pay matrix!!! Pl check.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. As usual, you have ttried to confuse yourself and others.

      2. The above pay matrix for Defence Forces personnel (except MNS) is on page 89 of the Report. It is for indexed for 24 years only. It was typed out in word format by me and posted here.

      3. The pay matrix for civilians is on pages 75 (up to index 28) and 76 (index 29 to 40). I have typed that out too but not posted it.

      Please check and apology is welcome.

      Delete
  9. Sorry for the error. But if you check entry in 13A. The last entry of 218... is erroneous as in the GP 8900 13A the last entry shd be 197500 and not 218200. It is this entry which made me point out the error.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Why I have pasted Para 5.1.39 of 7cpc report below is because Maj Navdeep Singh had pointed out in of of his posts in another blog that the pay scales of Brig and below upto level 12 have been depressed. Another reason is because a Brig is proceeding on pension/serving with a Basic Pay of 80000 which takes him to a Basic Pay of 205600 which is not in the Matrix.This is a case where the matrix could be devp as per requirement as given below- as per my understanding. The Matrix is going to go bust on 1.1.16 would not be a matter of pride for Justice AK Mathur!!!

    .Para 5.1.39 In the true spirit of having open ended pay scales the span of levels 1 to 11 has been kept at 40 years. This has been done to ensure that no stagnation takes place. However, level12 and beyond, the span of successive levels has been reduced so that the maximum at each level is lower than the maximum pay at the subsequent level. This has been done as a result of capping of maximum pay at HAG+ (level 16) at a lower stage as compared to the Apex pay at
    level 17. Since Apex pay at level 17 is fixed at ₹2,25,000, a person residing in the previouslevel (level 16) should not draw equivalent or more than the apex pay, the maximum pay hasbeen restricted to ₹2,24,400. Similarly the process has been followed until level 11 keeping in mind the maximum pay drawn by the person in the next higher level. Accordingly, the span of levels beyond level 11 progressively reduces from 39 years at level 11 to 4 years at level 16. Itis important to note that the end-points of any column do not signify the end points of any traditional pay scale. Hence in any kind of calculation which attempts to work with the
    “maximum pay of a particular pay scale” it would be inappropriate, even incorrect, to pick thelast figure of the column to be so. As has been stated earlier in this paragraph the column spans have been kept at 40 to cater to persons who may enter a particular level at any stage and may have resided in the level for a fair length of time. The end-points of the column, representing the possible highest and lowest pay in that level, may not be treated as the maximum and
    minimum of any closed pay scale, as used to prevail prior to the implementation of the VICPC.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There have been 3 Brig and one Air Cmde who may be drawing Rs 67000+8900+6000= Rs 81900 and pension of Rs 40950 which is more than the pay & pension of VCOAS.

      It would be easier, to check any depression, to use the tables in SAI 2/S/2008 and multiply PB+GP+MSP by the factor for each Grade Pay and arrive at the figures. I shall attempt and revert.

      Delete
  11. As per para 5.2.22 in page 92, MSP to be considered as Basic Pay for the purpose of commutation of pension. So the pension should be 50% of the multiplying factor (ie 2.57) of the total of existing Basic pay + Gde pay and the present MSP as recommended. Is is correct

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It is indeed so & there is also an example also in page 419 for the same

      Delete
    2. @ Venkatesh VT
      Sir,
      On the same Page 419, at Case 1, an illistration shows that a Col.who retired after receiving one increment, is better off, if he/she opts to receive the classical 'min of the pay in the Pay Band corresponding ,,,,' etc.
      How is this explained?
      The answer is, that Col. in 7CPC will start from a minimum which is less than the equivalent minimum of the 6CPC,by at least one increment.
      The Pay of Maj., Lt.Col., Col. and Brig. are being progressively depressed since the introduction of running pay scale(band) in 4CPC !
      Hope the Services will act to stop this down slide.

      Delete
    3. @penmil, Sir

      1. It has nothing to do with 4th CPC and so called depression. Please read SAI 2/S/2008, Para 7 - Fixation of initial pay in revised structure, Para 11 - Fixation of Pay in Revised Pay structure subsequent to 1.1.2006 and Para 12 - Fixation on Promotion on or after 1.1.2006.

      2. Those Lt Cols who exercised the option with the 3 months after SAI 2/S/2008 was out got Rs 37400+one increment = Rs 38530 (i.e 13500 +1600 x 1.86) as Pay in the Pay Band.

      3. All others who were promoted on or after 1.9.2008 were placed at Rs 37400. It was similar for Cols and Brigs.

      Delete
    4. @Aerial View
      Sir,
      Thank you for the detailed explanation.
      I was referring to the fact that while migrating from 6CPC to 7 CPC, the amount arrived at by way of multiplication of the Existing Emoluments of the 6CPC by 2.57 happened to be more than the minimum (Entry level) pay in the Pay Matrix of the 7CPC.
      It was not so while migrating from 5th to 6th CPCs.
      I was also referring to the setting aside of a part of the Basic Pay by the name of Rank Pay in the 4CPC and subsequent continuation of this 'setting aside' in the 5CPC and 6 CPC.
      This action I thought was an action to depress the Basic Pay, while retaining the total emoluments at a higher level.
      If you recall from 'Comments' in your blog on earlier post, it was brought out that while migrating from 5 CPC to 6 CPC , a L.Cpl.’s pay was considered to have commenced at 15100 and therefore while placing him/her in the 6 CPC 's PB4 at the Entry Level, one increment in 6CPC was granted in SAI 2/S/08,. was granted. This was so because the Starting Pay of the Lt Col was taken as 2 increments above the starting pay of Director in the Civil, which was at 14300 in V CPC.
      This had explicitly, not been stated, though.
      You had stated this fact at Para 2 above, in your comment.
      The trend from 4CPC onward displays, that the 'Edge enjoyed by the Defence services' has been separated from the Basic Pay and placed aside as the Rank Pay or as the MSP.
      Effectively, the Lt Col has been brought down below a Director with the Col taking the equivalent post of the Director.
      Here in the 7CPC Matrix, a new formula had been devised to depress the Entry Level Pay of Lt. Col it takes the 'Residency Period' of a Lt.Col as 13 years where as the Residency Period of a Director in Civil as 14 years( here the numerical values are my inference) Thus the entry Level Pay of a Lt Col is shown, as 45400 where as in SAI 2/S/08 it was 46530, as you mentioned at Paras 2 and 3 above.
      Those who were promoted to Lt.Col after 1.9.2008 had been placed at the starting point of PB4 since that point was much above the Major's Pay.
      In summary, my plea is that the Entry Pay (EP) of 7CPC is less attractive than the Start Point of SAI 2/S/08. My inference, though wrong, is that this is by design.

      Delete
  12. Sir,

    The 7th CPC has recommended the slab system for disability pension. This will result decrease in disability pension being received by the disabled veterans. A real example is of a Lt Col in receipt of Rs 4972/- as disability pension. With DA it comes to Rs 10888/-. As per the new recommendations it will get reduced to Rs 9000/-. Maj Navdeep has also highlighted it giving the example of a Lt Gen and comparing it with his equivalent in CPMF.

    The recommendation is not only biased against the services/veterans but results in a situation where an existing allowance gets reduced for veterans. Probably an unique recommendation of existing allowance getting reduced while every other allowance goes up.

    Regards,

    RC

    ReplyDelete
  13. For the sake of facts, no opinion/calculations etc will be offered till relevant Govt approval of 7 CPC recommendations and SAI/SNI/SAFI are issued.

    Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. sir, would not that be late. issues which are important and have not been addressed sufficiently in 7cpc report need to be analysed and projected if required. sir, with ur understanding of the subject, your analysis will be of great help.

      Delete
  14. Normally any benefit given is never taken back. Only enhancement is made orSS Status Quo maintained. However ,the 7thCPC has recommended the removal of free rations for Officers in peace areas and also abolished Furlough. Furlough is generally used in an emergency when other leave is exhausted. If accepted this will be a retrograde step and does not auger well for the forces' morale . This is the time the three chiefs has to take a call as it directly affects serving Personell.
    ramani

    ReplyDelete
  15. Sir,

    Till such time approvals come through, the blog could throw up possible anomalies, enabling stakeholders to launch processes with a view to obtain resolutions.

    I, for one, have still not been able to understand how the matrix will be reconciled with OROP.

    A Lt Col who got, say, 7 increments before he retired with a service of 26 years in 2002, would only reach a point in level 12A of the matrix corresponding to 11+7=18 years of service by using the matrix. What about the "equal service" component of OROP?

    The only way the Lt Col could get the full benefit of "same service" condition of OROP would be if he availed the number of increments (15) required to reach his total years of service (11+15=26) and not the 7 he had earned when the pay band did not start at 11 years of service. The notional pay point for a Lt Col with 26 years of service would be with 15 increments after 01 Jan 2016.

    Isn't that the point in the matrix where OROP would require his pension to be fixed?

    ReplyDelete
  16. UNJUSTIFIED SHOCKERS for DEFENCE & JUSTIFIED BONANZA for
    POLICE, thanks to the 7th PAY COMMISSION
    1. Top end of basic pay of defence personnel has been depressed. (Earlier it was equal for the defence and the civilian counterparts.)
    2. Demand for 75% last pay drawn as pension has been rejected by saying that the MSP counts for pension. (P 402)

    3. Furlough leave and free ration to defence officers to be abolished.

    4. 100 units of free electricity to defence personnel to be abolished.

    5. Funeral allowance to defence personnel to be abolished.

    6. Technical pay tier 2 for defence officers abolished (No change in technical pay tier 1). Flight charge certificate allowance abolished. P 245

    7. Option given to defence staff to join NPS. (P 398). Defence personnel should contribute for their pensions. (P399.)

    8. Demand for upgradation of Group X Sgts/Havaldaars to diploma payscale rejected.

    9. COBRA allowance for Police Forces brought at par with Special Forces Allowance for defence personnel.

    10. Ex-gratia allowance for police forces enhanced and brought at par with those for defence personnel.

    11. One additional free railway warrant to be given to police forces in hard areas on the pattern of defence forces.

    12. Military Service Pay of defence personnel not to count for HRA and transfer grant.

    13. Gallantry award monthly allowance enhanced for Coast Guard. No change for defence gallantry awards.

    14. Special duty allowance for the IAS/IPS at 30 % of basic pay to far exceed the Siachen/submarine/flying allowance. A Joint Secretary drawing basic pay of Rs 182700 will get this allowance while getting posted in North-East/Ladakh as Rs54810 whereas the siachen/flying/submarine allowance has been capped at Rs 31500.

    15. Return to slab based disability pension system may not be beneficial. It is likely to result in a substantial reduction

    16. MSP worked out and recommended by the three Services HQ and ESM was 62% of basic pay for JCOs & ORs and 52% of basic pay for Officers based on various factors. The MSPs recommended (15500,10800, 5200, 3600) for commissioned officers, MNS, JCOS/NCOs/ORs, NCs(E) are too less to what has been worked out.

    17. One rank, one pension which was the exclusive right of the defence services has now been granted to the civilians including the police forces.

    18. Our differential in pension which existed in 1973 ie Pension 70-75% of LPD for JCOs & ORs & 50% of LPD for Officers, while for Civilians it was 33% has not been restored. This differential should have been mentioned by the 7th CPC which has not been done. Accordingly, the Pension of JCOs & ORs should be 90% of LPD and for Officers it would be 70%.

    19. Not-so-good intentions! Retiring age of sepoy has been shown as 42-48, of Naik has been shown as 49 and of Havaldaar has been shown as 49, of Nb Sub as 52., of AC/LAC has been shown as 52. P397. P398 says they retire after their term of engagement. It is not mentioned that majority of defence personnel retire at 35.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. MSP not to be counted for Trasfer grant and HRA whereas NFU (which in the name itself contains non functinal) is counted. It seems that cpc was only looking to reduce most of the allwces of defence and give everything to Capf/civilians. it does not come as surprise that in the questionnaire for defence, cpc specifically asked for details of allowances fully knowing that defence gets lesser allowance than civilians (total numbers).
      furlough leave abolished. Pray how an defence person who requires more leave than entitled will get it. unlike civilians and capf, defence persons even if they have annual leave credited into their account cannot avail it. defence person also cannot sit at home and report after as long he wants with fake medical certificate or else can ask for extra ordinary leave which is without pay. furlough was the only legit option with defence and that too has been taken away without giving any justification.it seems that cpc has not delved into the logic of furlough also has not seen as to how many availed it in life. hardly few. and more so people do not get to avail annua leavve what to talk of furlough. hope these points are considered.

      Delete
  17. Corona 8- Its a new subject for us all. What we are doing is the result of application of mind and following the path of common sense. Please don't mix the 'Pay Matrix' with OROP. As I see, once OROP sees light of the day, the resultant Quotient(new basic pension- based on average of 2013) multiplied by the factor of 2.57 will be higher, possibly in all pre-2016 retirees. That takes care of your 26 years of service. Col Dutt

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @Colonel:"..don't mix the 'Pay Matrix' with OROP..."

      Firstly, it is not a "new subject".

      OROP and 7 CPC have been hanging fire since these blogs started.

      As to who is getting mixed up can best be gauged from a reading of para 10.2.86 of the 7 CPC recommendations. The pay-matrix is what is recommended as basis of fixing pensions for all pre 01 Jan 2016 defence retirees. This recommendation, presently, will over ride what has gone before, including any tables or charts that might be issued for defence services OROP for the period July 2014 to December 2015.

      The stand of the Govt could well be 7 CPC recommendations have given OROP to everyone so the charts issued following the defence-services OROP "notification"of last month would operate only till 31 Dec 2015.

      When a CPC makes recommendations with a number of references to OROP for defence services and makes specific recommendations regarding pensions for defence services, then I'm afraid people need to step out of their intellectual comfort zones and begin applying a little un-common sense to try and make out which way they are headed or being led.

      Delete
  18. Sir,
    A substantive Cdr promoted in 1993 gets promoted to a substantive Capt(IN) in Jan 2003 and paid Cmde in Jan 2004, and retires in May 2004. His pension would be 134400/2.
    If not promoted to Cmde his pension as a Capt would be 137400/2
    If not promoted to Capt rank, his Cdr's pension would be 161500/2
    Could you please this anamoly ? It seems quite ridiculous!
    Warm Regards

    ReplyDelete
  19. 7th Pay Commission reduces the Max. Pay of defence personnel, Cunning move, Gives Military Service
    Pay (MSP), Reduces basic pay. But the net effect is still reduction in max. total pay. The edge given by 6th Pay
    Commission in max. pay to defence personnel has been replaced with reduction in max. pay. In 4th Pay Commission,
    also the dirty game was played. Rank pay was given but basic pay/status was reduced. History repeats itself.
    MAX . BASIC PAY (+ grade pay) after 6 CPC AFTER 6CPC, Edge of max. defence pay over civil MAX . BASIC PAY after 7 CPC AFTER 7CPC, REDUCTION of max. defence pay w.r.t. civil
    RANK / GRADE PAY Defence Civil Defence
    Incl MSP Without MSP With MSP
    +125% DA Defence Civil Defence
    Incl MSP Without MSP With MSP
    + Nil
    DA
    Sepoy/2000 22200 22200 24200 Nil 4500 43100 48500 48300 5400 200
    Naik/2400 22600 22600 24600 Nil 4500 50400 56800 55600 6400 1200
    Havaldar/2800 23000 23000 25000 Nil 4500 57500 64700 62700 7200 2000
    Nb Sub/4200 39000 39000 41000 Nil 4500 70000 78800 75200 8800 3600
    Sub/4600 39400 39400 41400 Nil 4500 88700 99800 93900 11100 5900
    Sub Maj/4800 39600 39600 41600 Nil 4500 94100 105900 99300 11800 6600
    Lt/5400 44500 44500 50500 Nil 13500 110700 124500 126200 13800 1700
    Capt/6100 45200 51200 Nil 13500 120900 136400
    Maj/6600 45700 45700 51700 Nil 13500 136900 150800 152400 13900 1600
    Lt Col/8000 75000 81000 Nil 13500 192800 208700
    Col/8700 75700 75700 81700 Nil 13500 195800 214100 211300 18300 2800
    Brig/8900 75900 75900 81900 Nil 13500 197500 216600 213000 19100 3600
    MajGen/10000 77000 77000 Nil 13500 218200 218200 Nil
    Complied by Arvind Vig. Errors, if any may be intimated to akvig.pec.iit.xlri@gmail.com

    ReplyDelete
  20. Sir, you are a master at creating confusion. The above was used by Maj Gen Satbir Singh (retd) in the form of a table. But you concealed the fact that Sepoy with GP 2000 was placed at Rs 43100 at Index 24 (page 89) and the Rs 47100 you quote for a civilian employee is at Index 27 (page 75).

    Services HQ or IESM did not propose the hike in pension that you quote.

    Services HQ proposed hike in MSP as follows: - 30% for NC(E) & ORs, 25% for JCOs, 20% for Lt to Col, 15% for Brig and above and 70% of the above for MNS Officers.

    Please tell us the truth.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Dear Sirs & Friends,

    Please do not mix up 7th CPC and OROP and its tables which are yet to be issued.

    Keep sending grievances to DESW with ref to their OROP implementation letter of 07th Nov 2015 in which they committed that the OROP tables and instructions to PDAs for payment of arrears will be issued soon. So far they/PCDA(P) have not issued such tables and instructions. Please keep sending grievances asking them for issue of OROP tables and instructions for PDAs as the word "soon" does not mean weeks and months what to talk of years and decades. I have already sent strong grievance to DESW. I know they wont reply for three months, if every one sends grievances then they may woke up. Why I am asking for OROP tables is, OROP need to be implemented from 01 Jul 2014 where as 7th CPC will be implemented from 01 Jan 2016. OROP tables will help us claiming 7th CPC pension not in pay metrics but in working out pension at fitment formula of last pension drawn x 2.57. This is one fact. The other expectation is, there is a meeting and railwaymen's strike on 27 Nov 2015 to increase the fitment formula to 3.84 which may not be accepted by the govt in toto but it may go to 3 from 2.57.

    Let us keep pressing hard for OROP tables first, which will help us by getting 7th cpc pension in the formula of last pay/pension drawn x fitment formula (either 2.57 or the increased one because of railwaymen striking all over India).

    7th CPC pay matrics have been made by calculating starting basic of 6th cpc + Grade Pay * 2.57 and then MSP is also calculated in the same formula ie 600 (Offrs) * 2.57 = 15,420 & rounded to 15,500/-. The amount arrived in formula one of 7th cpc will remain short of the amount fetching in formula 2 (ie last basic plus grade pay x 2.57 plus last MSP x 2.57). Please try yourself.

    Lets us quietly wait for OROP table which will be implemented from 01 Jul 2014. If the govt issues same pay matrics of 7th cpc as OROP tables, they can be challenged with what the people proceeding on pension after 01 Jan 2016 are getting the pension.

    Second thing is that in 7th CPC pension formula one, says last pay drawn plus the increments drawn. What does increments mean, drawn or earned. Lt Cols before 24 Dec 2004 were given Lt Col basic after completion of 17 years service (selection grade) and time scale Lt Cols got it after 21 years, but after 24 Dec 2004 every officer who completed 13 years service have been given Lt Col basic pay. Now the question is whether the increments drawn or earned after 13 years service. If an officer is served for 25 years he earns 12 increments with Lt Col pay. In 7th CPC recommendation it was wrongly worded which says the increments drawn where as it should be increments earned. Increments earned may have been drawn or may not have been drawn, irrespective of whether the increments drawn or not the pension be fixed on the basis of increments earned (the latest entitlements).

    Rest is for your logical thinking.

    ReplyDelete
  22. @Col MS Raju : "..Don't mix up..."

    There we go again.

    Could you kindly refer my previous comment?

    7CPC has already served a OROP cocktail "mixed up" with a new pension matrix in black and white and here are readers posting long messages with advice to others to not mix OROP with 7 CPC.

    I think the wake up call has already been issued and we'd better gear up to start thinking about all manner of anomalies arising. I have speculated about those on my blog. http://bit.ly/1PLUjBt

    ReplyDelete
  23. @corona8.
    sir,
    Just curious.
    In an earlier comment you had indicated that the Lt. Col. pay column in the matrix started at 11 Years.
    How did you infer that ?

    ReplyDelete
  24. Dear Carona8

    What I said in my comment is about the increments in the drawn in the rank held at the time of retirement.

    Now Penmil has raised similar point on your previous comment of 11 years for Lt Col.

    My submission is all old termed Lt Cols who became Lt Cols by selection and time scale prior to 24 Dec 2004 are due for fixation of pay with the increments right from fourteenth year of service. That is why I brought in my comment about "increments earned" & "Increments Drawn". We are entitled for increments earned right from 14th year of service and not simply what we drawn from 17 or 18th year of service (for Selection Grade) and and completion of 21 years of service (for time scale).

    I was in service when all Majs with 13 years of service were promoted to Lt Cols under AVS commission wef 24 Dec 2004. But my pay (I was selection grade Lt Col from 15th year of service but given Lt Cols basic pay after completion of 17th year) was not refixed. I was given Lt Col pay scale after completion of 17 years of service. on 24 Dec 2004 Majs with in the service bracket of 13 to 20 years all of them became Lt Cols with Lt Col full pay. God only knows how the pay of 13 years maj and 20 years maj was fixed as they both became Lt Cols on same day. On 24 Dec 2004 my pay would have been refixed with Lt Cols pay of 13500/- plus seven increments as I completed 21 years (became selection grade Lt Col in 15th year but no pay was given for 2 years). Now 7th CPC has used the words "increments drawn in the last rank held" be added to the pay matrix. My point is it should be increments earned but not drawn.

    25 years Lt Col with 12 increments the basic pension plys MSP (3000) goes to 34 450 (this should be the orop table) if this comes, 7th cpc pension scale would be fixed by multiplying this last pension drawn Rs 34450 x 2.57 = 88,537/- per month. This is what my point. Hope I put it very clearly now in this comment.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Point noted, Sir.

    I think I might have been misled by something I'd read on the web.

    It should have been 13 and not 11.

    My comment should have read as follows:

    A Lt Col who got, say, 7 increments before he retired with a service of 26 years in 2002, would only reach a point in level 12A of the matrix corresponding to 13+7=20 years of service by using the matrix. What about the "equal service" component of OROP? ~~

    The only way the Lt Col could get the full benefit of "same service" condition of OROP would be if he availed the number of increments (13) required to reach his total years of service (13+13=26) and not the 7 he had earned when the pay band did not start at 13 years of service. The notional pay point for a Lt Col with 26 years of service would be with 13 increments after 01 Jan 2016...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @corona8 and @ Col MS Raju
      Thank you, sirs.
      My doubt is cleared.

      Delete
  26. Sir
    I retired as a LT Cdr (SD) in Sep 1994 with seniority of 8 years in the rank and with full service of 32 years.I am confused by the tables and would be grateful if some one can enlighten me.

    ReplyDelete
  27. @Col MS Raju :..Penmil has raised similar point on your previous comment of 11 years for Lt Col.."

    Those points are not at all similar to what you had stated. That point was about years of service required for promotion and has been welcomed and used for correcting my blog post. Kindly read my preceding comment.

    But in the case of your comments, on one hand you mention the distinction between increments actually earned and increments that would be admissible considering the years of service, the very same point I've raised repeatedly over the past week, yet on the other hand you suggest OROP and 7 CPC should not be mixed up.

    Please think. CPC has mixed up the two. People making comments on blogs haven't. Nor can they unmix what CPC has mixed.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Dear Sir,
    A Lt Col promoted to Col on time scale Post AVS in Dec 2004 and retired in Dec 2005 having earned only one increment will be placed at 125700/2 in the matrix. His batchmates in Lt Col rank retiring prior to Dec 2004 (Pre AVS) will be placed much higher in the Lt Col matrix having earned more increments. Hope OROP Tables clarify this. Regards....Rajendra

    ReplyDelete
  29. Yes, its a bit of a mystery.

    But an Officer promoted on time bound basis to rank of Col would have completed 26 years of service. He should be eligible for 13+13 increments in level 12A of matrix, or at least as many as he had actually earned. On promotion (on time bound basis) he would have been given at least that many increments in level 13 so that his pay fixation was not less than what it was in level 12A.

    I suppose those increments in level 13 would also have to be considered. His increments may therefore be more than just 1.

    ReplyDelete
  30. @Col MS Raju: From what I'd understood, one 7 CPC pension calculation for a pre Jan 2006 Lt Col with 25 years of service would be 25470x2.57=65457.90. For a Lt Col retiree of the period 01 Jan 2006 to 31 Dec 2015, it would be ( actual pension fixed)x2.57. I don't think MSP enters that equation.

    As per the matrix, if a Lt Col retiree of pre Jan 2016 category, promoted at 17 years of service with 25 years of service at retirement had earned 8 (25-17=8) increments, his pension would be (143500+15500)/2 =79500.

    However, considering that to attain 25 years of service, an officer would require12, ie.12=25-13, increments and not the 8 actually earned in the pre AVS-I era, then his pension as per the matrix would need to be , ought to be, (161500+15500)/2= 88500.

    However, I'd be grateful for any corrections regarding these speculations.

    ReplyDelete
  31. @corona8

    I agree that 7th cpc pay matrix include OROP and it is mixed up both, but it cant be implemented wef 01 Jul 2014, it being 7th cpc recommendations they will only be implented wef 01 Jan 2016. If we see the 7th cpc pay matrix table 12A, coln we can find 18 increments suggested/recommended to Lt Col (8000 GP) it means an officer in Lt col rank who earlier served for 31 years and above would get the highest pay shown in the last row in 12A column plus MSP 15,500 and half of this sum will be pension which works out to Rs 1,04,150/- pm. But all this will be clear once the instructions to PDAs along with OROP tables are issued by DESW/PCDA(P). Let us wait eagerly.

    ReplyDelete
  32. @corona8

    Now you are absolutely correct in para 3 of your comment above.

    Similarly work out pension of those Lt Cols who earlier served for above 31 years who never got time scale Col rank prior to vith cpc. What amount of pension such lt cols get in 7th cpc era? The pay matricks of 7th cpc recommends 18 yearly increments for Lt Cols (GP 8000) in coln 12A. It means the officer who served for 31 years and retired as Lt Col (time scale from 21st year onwards) will now be entitled for 18 increments (13 yrs + 18 years = 31 years). Some one above asked here (@satya sajja) that he served for 32 years and retired as Lt col in Sep 1994. He must get all 18 increments not only in 7th cpc but in orop scale even, or else he should be given col rank at 26th year of service and continue drawing annual increments till 32 years service. The difference between Lt Col and Col is just grade pay of Rs 700/- pm in 6th cpc era. He must get all 18 increments at least as shown in the pay matrix for 7th cpc.

    ReplyDelete
  33. @Col MS Raju:"..will only be implented wef 01 Jan 2016.."

    That is obvious. We're discussing pensions only wef 01 Jan 2016. But the point is 7CPC seems to have incorporated a "increments actually earned" model in a post 01 Jan 2016 version of OROP. It is that we need to look at, esp the concern expressed by you as well that whether there is a requirement to consider the increments nowadays required in a particular level to reach the total years of service of pre Jan 2016 retirees (esp those from the pre 16 Dec 2004 era in the case of Officer retirees).

    As to what sort of OROP table/matrix will apply from Jul 14 to Dec 2015 is anybody's guess.

    ReplyDelete
  34. A level playing is what we should be looking for rather than getting into precise pension calculations.Pre 06 the scales(offrs) were such that one could get 3/4/5 increments (assumption) within the scale and two stag increments. Compare this with post 06 where a Lt col could have 12(if he took PMR after 25yrs;a Col could get even more if he retd as a Col(SG); a brig is getting 8/9 ; a maj Gen getting 4/5. The matrix works on 'increments' model. Rk weightage pre 1.9.08 for 33 yrs qualifying service vs 20 yrs qualifying service in 6cpc regime also needs to b taken into acct. This proposal of yrs in last rk was proposed for finalising orop but was rejected by the services and ufesm. Unfortunately justice Mathur has relied on inputs and not on a bit of analysis and research.

    ReplyDelete
  35. @batsy, Sir your summation would have been precise i.e. there were 6/10/9/5/3/8 increments for Capt/Maj/Lt Col/Col/Brig and Maj Gen from 1996 till 15 Dec 2004 when the juggernaut hit the AVSC and then the bunching up too place which took between 7 and 8 years to clear. Therefore, the increments were reduced/staggered.

    From my understanding, the pay matrix so recommended is for transition from 6 CPC to 7 CPC. So all those who retired after 1.1.2006 - exercising the option of one increment for re-fixation being in the rank at the time of retirement(i.e Rs 38530 for Lt Cols) or opted to start from the minimum of the pay in the pay band of that rank (Rs 37400) - will find appropriate places in the index from where to start.

    There is a lot of analysis and research but then one must read the Report instead of "batting" the breeze.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Let us take example of a Major who got time bound rank in 2006 and if he retires at the service of 23 years in year 2015, he earns and actually draws 10 increments (10th increment is drawn before retirement on completion of 23 years service). Under orop all officers who retires at 23 years service shall have to be deemed to have served for 10 years in Lt Col rank which came into force on 24 Dec 2004, and all Lt Cols retired with 23 years service must get the pension with 10 increments at par with the officer with similar length of service is retiring in year 2015. The OROPO definition says it is length of service and the rank not the service in last rank and increments earned in last rank. As per this definition all old retiree Lt cols would automatically get the benefit of AVS commission implemented on 24 Dec 2004. All Lt Cols irrespective of their date of retirement to count the Lt Col service with effect from their 14 year of service irrespective of whether they got the rank in 14th year or at later stage. Lt Cols who served beyond 25 years total service before retirement they are entitled for Col rank immediately after completing 26th year of service and they should insist for Col rank and increments for service till 32 years, if they got full pension for 33 years. OROP definces same rank and same length of service. With the AVS commission and 6th cpc every officer above 13 years is a Lt Col and above 26 years is a Col and they should equate to Lt Cols and Cols and thus entitled for pension what Lt Cols and Cols are getting after retirement by 2015. After 2015 OROP switches over to equate pension with those retiring in 7cpc era.

    ReplyDelete
  37. It is understood that the UFESM is contemplating going to the HSC.They should wait till the OROP Tables are out, else the matter will become subjudice and all of us will be left holding the can.
    Ramani

    ReplyDelete
  38. Dear Sir Ref Matrix above, Lt Col. Minimum pension today is (Excl DA) is 26265/-, therefore corresponding minimum pay is (X2) 52530/-.
    Minus MSP 6000/- is 46530/-. I.e. Min Basic of Lt Col plus Grade pay is 46530/- and not 45700/- as shown in the matrix.

    Consequently multiplying by 2.57 X 46530 = 119830/- and NOT 116700/- as shown.
    may be for others as well

    ReplyDelete
  39. @paramjit singh

    Min basic pay in pay band of Lt Col (without any increments) is 37400 basic + 8000 GP = 45400 and this basic pay is correctly shown in the pay matrix. All Lt Cols retired prior to 01 Jan 2006 were initially given pension of Rs 37400+8000+6000 MSP = 51400/2 = 25700 wef 01 Jan 2006 irrespective of increments earned/drawn by the officers. With the HSC judgement one increment of Rs 1130/- (that too 3 % on 37400 and not on GP, this is again an anomaly, Half of the increment of 1130 which works out to Rs 565/- was then added and arrears were initially paid from 24 Sep 2012 and onwards as per the MOD letter of 17 Jan 2013, again with the HSC intervention the govt has now paid arrears of Rs 565/- pm from 01 Jan 2006 to 23 Sep 2012) Thus the pension initially fixed at Rs 25700/- for Lt Cols with effect from 01 Jan 2006 has gone up to Rs 26265 (with the addition of just one increment that too on min of pay band of Rs 37400 and not on 45400/-). Granting of one increment that too only on pay band irrespective of increments earned/drawn by each officer is also an anomaly. Now as per 7th CPC recommendations the officers retired prior to 01 Jan 2016 will get all increments drawn added to their pay for re-fixing the pension with effect from 01 Jan 2016. Now the question is whether it is increments drawn or increments earned. Officers who got Lt Col rank prior to 24 Dec 2004 (AVSC) did not draw increments in Lt Col rank from 14th year of service, but after AVSC they are entitled for increments from 14th year onwards for fixation of future pay/pension in every cpc, then only OROP can be ensured between earlier retired officer and officer now being retired.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @ Col MS Raju
      Sir,
      “With the HSC judgement one increment of Rs 1130/- (that too 3 % on 37400 and not on GP, this is again an anomaly,”
      The above interpretation that Lt. Col were given ONLY one increment during fixation in 6CPC Pay Band may be not correct.
      The pension of Lt.Col. in 6 CPC was not in any way linked to the number of increments that the person had drawn in VCPC, before retiring during VCPC.
      It was linked however to the starting PAY in SAI 2/S/08, for that rank.
      Please refer to the following link from Maj Navdeep’s blog, for the start PAY of Lt. Col in PB4.
      http://www.indianmilitary.info/search?q=papa+bravo+four
      Lt Col even with no increment in V CPC regime, while migrating to 6 CPC Pay Band was given One Increment on the start point of PB 4 Band.
      Those who had earned more than four etc. (in VCPC), were given two increments and more (in 6CPC) as per the ‘bunching’ rule of 6CPC.
      As to why Lt.Col. in 6 CPC started with one increment at the time of ‘fixation’ is as given below: -
      The PB 4 Pay Band was given to all scales Starting from S-24 to S-32 of V CPC.
      S-24 was 14300-400-18300.
      Lt.Col. was Rs 15100-18700
      Therefore Lt. Col was two increments above the lower pay scale of S-24 in VCPC and hence qualified for one increment at the start of 37400 67000 in 6CPC.
      As per the ‘Bunching Rule of 6 CPC’ the increment was to be computed on the Pay in the Pay Band and the GP was not to be included.
      This can be seen by reading the Lt. Col fixation in 6CPC, letter at
      https://www.scribd.com/doc/14481895/PB-4
      Col., Brig. And Maj Gen, were also given a number of increments over 37400, by considering how far ahead their Pay Scales in V CPC stated over 14300, by considering the increment value as 400.
      Hence pensions of Col to Maj Gen were also regulated as per the corresponding start figures in SAI 2/S/08.
      But it is altogether a different matter that the S-24 was awarded a GP of 8700 whereas the Lt.Col. was only given a GP of 8000.
      Please read the blog posts of those days, by Maj.Navdeep.
      It is also explained in the Chapter on Pay Matrix, in the 7 CPC Report, as to why the Lt Col now started at with an EP of 45400. This is the first time, after the 3 CPC, a ‘full parity’has been recommended by the CPC It is to be seen how the past pensions will be converted into 7CPC pensions.

      Delete
    2. @penmil

      Agreed but how all the Lt Cols who retired in Vth CPC with the last basic (incl rank pay) of Rs 1`5100 and above up to Rs 18700 were given same pension with effect from 01 Jan 2006 it Rs 26265. I was drawing basic of Rs 18700 at the time of retirement in Jul 2005. This was the highest basic for Lt Col in vth CPC. But every one was given same pension from 01 Jan 2006 it 26265, this is injustice to those who had drawn maximum increments. Now irrespective of increments drawn all earlier retired officers (Lt Col) pension be fixed with increments starting from 14th year of service till the year of retirement. If a Lt Col retires in 2015 with 23 years of service he gets 10 increments (3% compounded anually, on pay band plus GP) and 50% of this pay is pension for him. All Lt Cols retired with simlar length of service must get pension at par with the officer with 23 yrs service retiring in year 2015 and after migrating to 7th cpc these officers pay will be worked out as per the 7th cpc pay band and 10 increments over it, 50% of this will be the pension. This ensures the OROP automatically.

      Delete
  40. @ Col MS Raju
    Sir,
    “Agreed but how all the Lt Cols who retired in Vth CPC with the last basic (incl rank pay) of Rs 1`5100 and above up to Rs 18700 were given same pension with effect from 01 Jan 2006 it Rs 26265.”
    That was what they called “Modified Parity”, a principle established at the commencement of V CPC, on 01/01/1996.
    The 6 CPC just retained that principle. But while issuing operative instructions, it was wrongly interpreted and hence there was litigation starting with OA 655 etc. You are aware of it so I will not repeat.
    What you are stating is “full Parity”, which perhaps for the first time in history, 7CPC has recommended. It is explained how it will work for those retired during 6CPC
    But I am unclear as to how it will work out for retirees prior to 6CPC.In addition, there is the post and Pre AVS complication of the residency period for Lt Col and Col.
    My hunch is that it will be very complicated.
    But I could not understand why you called it (the 7CPC Recommendation for pensions), OROP. What 7 CPC recommended is just a ‘full parity”.
    Simply stated, with the 7 CPC recommendations, a past pensioner, who had spent a long time in a given last rank would be benefited.
    With OROP, a past pensioner, who had spent a long time in service, but a short time in the last rank will be benefited.
    In my opinion that is the conflict that will arise.

    ReplyDelete
  41. I think the OROP will beat the 7th CPC hands down.It recalls to mind the comment of the RM that veterans will not be covered by the 7thCPC.However it is the formulae of multiplication factor of 2.57 that is important.Let us hope that the interaction with Gen V.K .Singh will produce the required results.
    Ramani

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sir,

      It has been clarified in Nitin Gokhale's column that the RM did not say at DSSC/Wellington, that Veterans will not be covered by 7th CPC. It is some Wg Cdr Batra "who heard that he said at DSSC." The Hindu and the ToI have covered the RM's visit and his comment that OROP implementation if just a matter of few more days. Please provide any authentic information that RM said what you allege.

      Delete
  42. @ Taaza Khabar,
    Just wait till 20th dec when the tables will be out(hopefully). Also I understand that future PMRs
    will also be covered by OROP. This I read in one of the blogs.hopefully this is true.
    so far everything is in the field of conjecture
    .ramani

    ReplyDelete
  43. Dear Sir,

    As per TOI news, the pay matrix levels for Lt Col, Col and Brig are increased. The chart given above is the same old one. Let us wait for the new pay matrix chart with increased levels.

    The present basic pension of Lt Col & equivalents is Rs 34765/-, add 23%, it comes to 42761/- then multiply it by 2.25 (DA as on 01 Jan 2016), the gross basic pension will then be Rs 96,213/- per month. Another latest news is that the PMO has said higher increase of existing basic is being given at 30% (instead of 23 or 23.55% shown above). Let us wait till full figures are published by the MOD.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Dear Colonel,

    This post is dated 21 Nov 2015.

    The Cabinet approved the increase of rationalisation for Brig from 2.57 to 2.67 and added more stages (indices) for Lt Col and Col on 29 June 16 - about 6 months later.

    So you may wish to withdraw your comment as you have mixed up the time lines.

    ReplyDelete